Rendered at 14:31:19 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
cmontella 1 hours ago [-]
I did some Julia benchmarking over the weekend against a bunch of languages if anyone is interested. The workload is an EKF on an Apple M1, I'm trying to do as many as possible in parallel:
Compared against Taichi, Halide, Futhark, Rust', Lua, LuaJIT, Numpy and pure scalar Python. Julia holds up great it can run basically as fast as you'd like! (These are not apples-to-apples comparisons, picture this as a basket of fruit)
'The Mech results should be understood to be a lower bound on how Rust would perform.
eigenspace 3 hours ago [-]
Julia is such a great language, it's what really made me care about end enjoy programming. I think it's the modern language which has taken the most lessons from lisps, and has come up with some great ideas of its own too.
There's lots to like, but I think the thing I love most about it and find it so interesting is that it's almost uniquely good at taking a piece of code and transforming it's meaning in various ways, and has so many tools for doing so. There's
* Multiple dispatch allowing very flexible writing of generic code, and multiple dispatch isn't some tacked on, opt-in extra. Every function in the language is overloadable, and there's no performance penalty for using multiple dispatch
* Parametric typing allows for a huge amount of abstraction over common 'base' types
* Lispy macros let you do metaprogramming that changes the meaning of a piece of syntax
* Generated functions let you intervene at compile time and lets you essentially take over the compilation pipeline and customize the code generation for any given input type signature
* The abstract interpreter interface which lets one essentially take over the compiler and customize your code generation and analysis passes to your heart's content. This is used for instance to support GPUs and automatic differentiation as package offerings.
aqme28 42 minutes ago [-]
I love multiple dispatch and I wish more languages had it
eigenspace 22 minutes ago [-]
It's a really nice feature. That said, I do think in the earlier days, the community did get a bit too enthusiastic about it, and used it in a lot of places in the ecosystem that didn't make so much sense.
I think things have come down to a much more reasonable place though now.
lalalanananana 3 hours ago [-]
It was a great idea for a language. In practice though,it's hard to recommend. Great pet project for some mit professors to make a bunch of side money on top of their salaries though. Everyone else riding it is pretty much trying to niche their career rather then build something people can rely on unfortunately. It's the most unstable language I've ever used. In production I watched companies spend millions of dollars, not large companies, dealing with that aspect of it. The ecosystem surrounding it, though it's old enough, is also incredibly weak.
It's a shame. So hard to recommend it to anyone outside of an academic environment.
eigenspace 2 hours ago [-]
This depends a lot on what you're trying to do with it. There have been companies which did what you described, but there's also companies happily using it.
If you reach into unstable language internals, yes there is a lot of churn. If you use public language interfaces, the language has been extremely stable for a long time.
The ecosystem quality and quantity depends a lot on what you're trying to do. If you're far away from numerics, then yeah, you will struggle a lot more. E.g. I wouldn't want to do web-dev in julia, but if your software product involves needing to solve an ODE, or a lot of linear algebra, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
lalalanananana 2 hours ago [-]
Not griping about the internals. More like breaking changes, weird issues with basic transitive dependencies breaking after a minor version bump to the language. Gave me, and others on the team, the impression that the whole thing was held together with bubblegum and toothpicks.
The ode stuff is cool, but when we reached for it none of the demos ran on recent versions. It was almost like the groups working on it either intentionally made it so you couldn't keep up with them or that again everything was built on a bed of sand.
I agree writing linear algebra in Julia is clean. That said, the cost for adding a few "." Chars or calling a library in any other language far outweighed the costs for trying to buy into the language itself.
I didn't even know you could do web dev in Julia. I don't want to know what that looks like.
eigenspace 2 hours ago [-]
> More like breaking changes
That certainly has not been my experience with the language since 1.0
> weird issues with basic transitive dependencies breaking after a minor version bump to the language.
Not sure what exactly this is referring to, but I suspect it was some bugs that happened when some stdlib packages were taken out of the sysimage and started being treated more like regular packages which are pre-installed.
For a couple minor versions, if you instantiated an manifest from a previous version that used some stdlibs, it could error out. That was indeed unfortunate and IMO should not have been released as such, but it's since been fixed.
I will point out though that officially, you are not supposed to use the same manifest across versions.
> didn't even know you could do web dev in Julia. I don't want to know what that looks like.
There's actually some rather cool stuff happening in that space, but yeah it's early days.
lalalanananana 2 hours ago [-]
Yea this wasn't user error which is the common gaslight trope from the Julia community. Yes some of these instances post dated 1.0 . Yes the average person is sick of being told there's nothing wrong with the technology when there's been a serious track record of it being a disaster. For companies an expensive one.
It's really not early days. The language is about 15 years old. That excuse gets really tired.
It's crazy to me how every person posting positively about Julia has the same tactics. They don't change year after year. They try to draw people in only to find it's a Trainwreck or a waste of time.
I just hope my comments save a start up a few million dollars or a curious hobbyist 5 months of their free time.
eigenspace 1 hours ago [-]
Not trying to gaslight you. Especially if you were hitting that issue with the stdlibs, as I said, I don't think we should have allowed a release to go out with that problem. It was treated as bug though and fixed (though it also took longer than hoped).
The manifest thing is a good example of a hard situation. You have a file format that's not designed to be portable across versions, but the usage pattern around it heavily encourages that, so of course it gets used across versions and bad stuff happens. I'm sure theres also some other examples like this one can pull up.
Of course there's cases where we should be doing better. I'm just also saying that this isn't the only experience out there, and the negative experience you're reporting isn't my experience.
> It's really not early days. The language is about 15 years old. That excuse gets really tired.
Please don't twist my words. I was responding to what you said about webdev, and I said there was some interesting things happening in that space, but still early days. I was explicitly referring to the webdev ecosystem being immature, not the language.
1 hours ago [-]
prof-dr-ir 7 hours ago [-]
Julia is fantastic if you do numerical work and want to write out your inner loops explicitly without sacrificing too much performance, either for pedagogical reasons or because you want to fiddle with the algorithm.
It is a lot of fun to start from an empty file, add maybe an import LinearAlgebra, and develop things like a convolutional neural network or a Markov-chain Monte Carlo algorithm completely from scratch. And then it is very rewarding to have such a program be fast enough (looking at Python here) to train on the MNIST dataset or find reasonable estimates for critical exponents.
I am not sure there are languages better suited than Julia for these kind of things.
guiriduro 4 hours ago [-]
Julia also has some of the nicest GPU abstraction frameworks of any language, achieving pretty low friction portability over a decent subset of CUDA, Metal, ROCm and CPU. KernelAbstractions.jl, AcceleratedKernels.jl etc.
cmontella 53 minutes ago [-]
I think this is true and agree. But also, the bar was pretty low before Julia, and since Julia it's been raised by languages like Futhark and Halide.
Staross 4 hours ago [-]
And if you don't want to code your own HMM it also has the best (AFAIK) HMM library out there (HiddenMarkovModels.jl).
maxall4 11 hours ago [-]
I really want to like Julia. It has a nice type system, a good ecosystem, reasonable syntax, and it’s far faster than Python. But there are several issues with its DX that prevent me from using it: the most severe of which being the complete lack of a cache for the JIT (or JIT like system), inducing multi second compile times for scripts that run in <100ms. There are some external packages that try to solve this issue, but they are far from first-party quality, and, in my experience, are quite buggy.
(I last tried Julia a few years ago; perhaps this has been improved since?)
jampekka 4 hours ago [-]
Also the module/import system is still quite painful/hacky. Which is partly due to the long compile times.
a between session cache had been merged for 1.14 (release expected within 6-12 months).
JanisErdmanis 10 hours ago [-]
What is this magic, how does it differ from PkgImages Julia already has?
adgjlsfhk1 2 hours ago [-]
pkgimages are keyed on package (and dependency) version so if you frequently add or update packages they don't help as much as they should. this new cache is at the function granularity and caches the llvm optimization and native codegen steps.
JanisErdmanis 2 hours ago [-]
Cool, can’t wait to try that out in a stable release.
ssivark 7 hours ago [-]
I imagine this will only become more important as we have more agents working on codebases in parallel; so a clean solution would be extremely valuable.
On the flip side, the rise of agentic coding means that the library/batteries mismatch against python will largely stop mattering. It should be very easy to have an agent implement large libraries -- especially if they can be just a translation from one language to another (esp. one with with better primitives!)
Joel_Mckay 8 hours ago [-]
> tried Julia a few years ago; perhaps this has been improved since?
The pre-compiled binary outputs are much smaller, and load a lot faster. =3
bandrami 11 hours ago [-]
[dead]
radiator 6 hours ago [-]
Do you think the criticism in the article "Why I no longer recommend Julia" about correctness is still valid? * there are too many correctness and composability bugs throughout the ecosystem to justify using it in just about any context where correctness matters *
I think that article has been discussed to death and there's not much value in resurrecting it on every single post that mentions Julia. ultimately if you think the language might be a fit for your use case, I'd recommend trying it out and see how you like it first-hand.
retsibsi 12 minutes ago [-]
I'm one of today's lucky 10,000, so I'm glad it was linked here (and would happily read a defence of the language from one of those previous discussions, too).
When the criticisms relate to correctness bugs, I don't think 'try it out and see how you like it' is sufficient. I might love the syntax and the design and so on, but that doesn't tell me whether I'm going to run into serious bugs some time in the future.
It got a little long and meandered a bit, but I think there's some good, nuanced discussion there.
1 hours ago [-]
lalalanananana 1 hours ago [-]
I strongly recommend listening to others experiences and not forwarding some conversion metric for the languages share holders. Maybe there's a lot of wisdom in smart people being vocal enough to say "yea no" about it. It's not like it's one person...
postflopclarity 1 hours ago [-]
I don't have any financial interest in Julia so I'm a bit confused about the reference to "share holders." I'm just a user.
I'm sure there are lots of smart people who found that the language didn't suit their needs. there are also lots of smart people who love using Julia. both things can be true at the same time.
patagurbon 8 minutes ago [-]
There are no language share holders, and note that this account was created an hour ago just to post vague nonspecific gripes about Julia.
There are some real issues in the ecosystem. Specifically there is a high proportion of “gradware” because much like other scientific languages there is a high proportion of graduate students doing their projects and then moving on.
The language also encourages relying on packages which can break. But juliaup makes this easy enough to solve by downgrading.
eigenspace 3 hours ago [-]
Programming languages have bugs. These things happen, and this tired article blows them totally out of proportion.
Some languages are less permissive, and have a culture of searching harder for corner cases and dealing with them than others, that is true. I would expect to find less cases like this in Rust, but more cases like this in Python.
Julia is an extremely flexible and permissive language, which means that generic code needs to be written carefully and contracts between interfaces need to be thought through.
When you combine funky package types like OffsetArrays with functions from a package where the authors didn't think about OffsetArrays, bad things can happen. Those things were then reported and the community has learned a lot about how to deal with those sorts of things.
I'm sure an AI agent can crawl through and find a new big list of weird bugs in julia, but that's true even of a language like Rust.
ainch 4 hours ago [-]
As someone who could be tempted by Julia but isn't involved in the community this was a very helpful read, thank you for sharing.
yurivish 6 hours ago [-]
I do. It pairs nicely with this quote from the article:
> “With Dyad 3.0, you can upload data and design documents and the system will design an entire aircraft for you,” Shah says
drhagen 4 hours ago [-]
When I was a grad student at MIT, my desk was across the hall from the Julia people. We even shared a lunch table. Julia is most famous for its optimizing compiler, but many people may not notice the careful work that went into designing the language itself. Matlab this was not! I remember one long conversation where one of them was teaching me about the different types of normalization of unicode. They had to pick one to canonicalize unicode variable names (more useful for a mathy programming language), and they were carefully considering the consequences of the options.
bee_rider 3 hours ago [-]
I don’t know if experience has just damaged my brain or what, but I really like matlab’s syntax for what it is. Nice for writing 100 line experiments or using in the REPL. Sort of like the Python of linear algebra, haha. It also has a nice feature where you start getting headaches to let you know you’ve tried to extend it past its comfort zone.
Julia seems to sit in this area between Matlab and Fortran where I can’t ever find a reason to learn it instead of just using one of the other two. But people seem to love it (and the GPGPU support sounds like it is good?) so I should probably just make up a reason.
myrmidon 6 hours ago [-]
Julia is really fun to use, and I think they are onto something with the type system: Complex types interact much better across module boundaries than in most other languages; here's a good talk on this by one of the creators:
The biggest drawback of the language in my view is that Julia is an LLVM toolchain "pretending" to be an interpreted language (it is, technically), this often leaks as very slow first execution latency (and almost forces you to keep the interpreter open instead of just calling it on the file you're editing).
ashton314 10 hours ago [-]
Julia is my go-to when I need a fast language that I can reason about in a functional way. The type system is fine, the pattern matching is pretty darn good, the metaprogramming story could be significantly better but it’s not bad and boy howdy it’s fast. So stinking fast.
hn_submit 8 hours ago [-]
Safe for BASIC I believe it's very difficult to make a programming language which is easy-to-learn like the creators of Julia proclaim. It may be somewhat easier to implement specific scientific functionality in the language but does that warrant the creation of yet another language?
Scanning the language it doesn't strike me at all as "simple."
Joel_Mckay 8 hours ago [-]
Julia abstracts entire programming paradigms in single characters.
But I agree the shared memory Distributed Computing part of Julia still needs a lot of work. Spawning binary image instances over ssh is too fragile. =3
hn_submit 41 minutes ago [-]
This revives my nightmares with D-COM (Distributed COM) in them.
ModernMech 3 hours ago [-]
Yes that was the basic trick they learned from Matlab, said to be a billion dollar company built off a single operator: \
Which, for anyone who doesn’t know Matlab, is the solve operator; it calls out to a big algorithm that chooses an appropriate solver given the operands, reducing large programs down to a single line.
Joel_Mckay 3 hours ago [-]
Matlab was better than Octave in many ways, till folks get the sticker-price shock for $3k/host in a commercial cluster. ymmv
I still like Julia more, as it is fun. =3
AnonHP 2 hours ago [-]
Is Julia any good for general purpose (non-scientific) use? I guess it probably may not have as many libraries as Python. So what do the library and third party package coverage look like in comparison to languages like Python, Go, etc.?
rgavuliak 2 hours ago [-]
Julia is going to overcome Python in usage, any decade now.
1 hours ago [-]
Alien1Being 11 hours ago [-]
Thought that it would be about Lisp....
manwe150 11 hours ago [-]
It was about lisp ;)
Secret mode: ./julia —-lisp
dandanua 5 hours ago [-]
The Julia type system is also great for AI, it makes code generation more robust. I also liked that some Julia code (such as matrix multiplication) can be executed on a GPU with no change and will be almost as fast as possible, although complex algorithms still require writing specialized kernels (which can be done completely in Julia as well).
11 hours ago [-]
drnick1 9 hours ago [-]
[dead]
xuchenyi 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bretnach 10 hours ago [-]
Yet another example of MIT taking far too much credit for something...
nyeah 1 hours ago [-]
MIT gonna MIT. That's a known issue. But HN users are still upvoting articles that are literally MIT press releases.
slwvx 10 hours ago [-]
I've seen JuliaHub taking credit for all of Julia before. I don't think there's anything new in this article
ModernMech 3 hours ago [-]
It’s a stealth ad for Dyad.
muragekibicho 11 hours ago [-]
Julia uses 1-based indexing. It's competes with R and Matlab for the same set of users. Both R and Julia have their core functions written in C++. Absolutely nothing new.
From my experience, grad students use Julia when their PI thinks a new programming language will help differentiate their next NSF proposal among vast funding requests.
eigenspace 3 hours ago [-]
This argument over indexing conventions is so tired.
I have yet to hear a good argument for why the answer to "How do I get the third element of this array?" should be `arr[2]`
> Both R and Julia have their core functions written in C++. Absolutely nothing new.
What on earth are you talking about? This is at least a novel claim. Some deep parts of julia's compiler are written in C++ but that's about it. Nearly everything in the language is written in julia itself.
The only significant foreign codebases in the language are
* LLVM
* OpenBLAS
* LibUV
all of which are extremely reasonable foreign things for a language to use (though we are gradually moving more and more of these things to the julia side)
defrost 2 hours ago [-]
> "How do I get the third element of this array" should be `arr[2]`
Ask a carpenter.
To get to the third pigeonhole in a racked series of one foot per pigeonhole unit you literally offset two feet from the origin.
In C (of course), arr[2] works as well as does 2[arr] as both are literally just syntactic sugar for arr+2
ie. The third pigeon hole begins after passing two whole pigeonholes.
jondea 2 hours ago [-]
The third hole is _offset_ by 2, but if you ask a carpenter to add number labels to your pigeonholes, they are going to start at 1.
Indexes start at 1, offsets start at 0.
defrost 2 hours ago [-]
Well, of course.
And offsets are the measurements that get you to an element - the question was explicitly phrased as "how do I get to" ...
CoreformGreg 1 hours ago [-]
Technically they explicitly said “how do I get the”
jondea 2 hours ago [-]
The problem is that we call the things in square brackets indexes, when we should probably call them offsets
eigenspace 2 hours ago [-]
Okay, but why are you trying to think about *elements* of a list in terms of offsets from the origin?
I mean, that's an important low-level detail to know when you're working with assembly or doing pointer math, but it is not something that necessarily needs to be polluting the semantics of a high level language.
I find it much easier to think in terms of v[i] is the i-th element of my vector.
These sorts of things just feel like mental gymnastics people perform to post-hoc justify language quirks.
defrost 2 hours ago [-]
You asked for a good argument - I provided one.
> but why are you trying to think about a list of elements in terms of offsets from the origin
I don't try to think about them in this way - I do and have always thought about them in this way - in software terms for 50 years, in real world cut, saw, and hammer ways for over 60.
> I find it much easier to think in terms of ...
Which is the crux of the issue really, that's how you think.
> v[i] is the i-th element of my vector.
I think of V as the start of a row of elements.
V+0 is equivalent to V and naturally the start of the first element.
V+1 is the start of the row, plus one - the literal start of the second element.
I've always thought of V[i] as offsets, "jump overs" if you will.
It comes naturally for many that have worked with their hands on physical objects and worked with tape measures.
> but it is not something that necessarily needs to be polluting the semantics of a high level language.
Either way of thinking works - I spent decades going back and forth from Fortran to C, and people are free to make their high level languages however they wish - it's trivial to move from one to the other.
There are even some funky (or eyeball gouging) tricks done to preamble a data run with meta data, leading to V[-1] indexing being commonplace (in some domains)
eigenspace 2 hours ago [-]
> You asked for a good argument - I provided one.
I don't see a good argument though, I just see adaption to a quirky convention.
> Either way of thinking works - I spent decades going back and forth from Fortran to C, and people are free to make their high level languages however they wish - it's trivial to move from one to the other.
Here I agree. I have no real problem using a 0-based indexed language, I adapt to it quickly (or as you mention a -1 indexed language. Julia itself actually stores type-level metadata at the -1 index of a pointer to a mutable struct)
I just dislike when people try and turn every conversation about julia into "oh it's 1-based indexed so that disqualifies it", and act like 0-based indexing is some god-given most natural way to do all indexing.
defrost 2 hours ago [-]
> , I just see adaption to a quirky convention.
Of course you do - you very likely didn't start programming in assembler.
You literally asked "How do I get to .." implying you wanting street instructions, distances, etc.
In assembler the third element begins literally and straightforwardly at the address base plus two (element widths).
That's not "a quirky adaption" is it? It's a dull pragmatic address of the start of the third element - the answer to the question you posed.
eigenspace 51 minutes ago [-]
I did not say "How do I get *to* ..".
> Of course you do - you very likely didn't start programming in assembler.
I did not, and I do not think that conventions from assembler should influence basic ergnonomic design decisions of modern high-level langauges.
adgjlsfhk1 11 hours ago [-]
> Both R and Julia have their core functions written in C++. Absolutely nothing new.
imo this isn't really a good summary. Julia is one of the 3 languages to have done an exascale HPC run https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.10292v1 (Fortran and C are the other 2). Some parts of the compiler are written in c++ (the llvm interface), but doing codegen with llvm is much more similar to C/Rust/Fortran than R/Matlab
skew-aberration 10 hours ago [-]
It kinda feels like Julia competes for the people who write the libraries for R and Matlab. Writing fast and elegant ODE solvers, etc in Julia seems to be easier than the others and they've attracted a lot of academics for that reason.
tonyarkles 9 hours ago [-]
I'm currently split between Python and Julia, having used R happily in the past for data analysis and Matlab for this and that in my EE program. For me, Julia crushes one niche that the rest of them are not good at: making the math look like the math.
If you've used something like SciPy or symbolic Matlab or Maxima or whatever, it always feels like I'm very carefully converting the equations I've scribbled down on paper into code and always a little nervous that I've accidentally split one variable into two names or used the wrong equality operator and am going to end up hating life, or accidentally assigned x = sp.Symbol("y") somewhere.
The Julia version is just plain beautiful. There's no ceremony other than the three @parameters, @variables, @mtkcompile macros. It lives in its own little world where you don't have to constantly watch your back to make sure you haven't duplicated a symbol somewhere.
skew-aberration 8 hours ago [-]
I definitely agree. And the common performance optimization metaprogramming (like 'do it this way for this type of input') works so much better with multiple dispatch, tag structs. Way ahead of C++ expression templates and much more pleasant than macros, concepts, etc.
Some of the lower-level APIs like those for concurrency were quite poorly thought out though, at least when I last used Julia. Condition variables don't have equivalent of pthread_timed_wait. Condition variables and channels APIs are not well integrated, design wise. I found so many such issues that it convinced me Julia wasn't general purpose enough. It felt like the features were a bit half-baked and had been hacked together by someone who knew their value but lacked the deep experience/knowledge to pull them all together into a single cohesive vision. Same issues as python, POSIX, etc.
tonyarkles 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah, the nifty part is instead of trying to write your whole multi-threaded high performance tool in Julia, there is excellent support for taking the math work you’ve done and codegen C out of it. Am very happily using that in prod today for a thing and it works awesome.
hasley 8 hours ago [-]
Getting linear algebra in a programming language close to math formulas was, for a long time, my reason to use Octave.
When I first read about Julia, I was really amazed - especially the type system with its multiple dispatching and not automatically converting between types (e.g., between integers and floats). Though, I do not know, how Julia is today.
Today, I use Python instead of Octave (or Julia) - just because it has a large ecosystem and is widely adopted. An additional advantage is that Python has much better OOP features than Octave had back then.
However, I wished Julia had the status that Python has today.
Joel_Mckay 7 hours ago [-]
Julia is fun, but is still mostly an academic language. Very few shops will use it in the private sector. Python is also more common as a prototype integration language, and rarely seen in industrial areas.
If you are an EE that wants to remain employed... than make sure you have documented hours with C/C++, Verilog on Zynq, and ladder logic for Rockwell automation products.
Best of luck =3
3 hours ago [-]
jhoechtl 8 hours ago [-]
> Julia uses 1-based indexing.
That rules it out to become a successor to Python. It sounds reasonable until you start interacting with other libraries.
I do know the attemp to justify it for Lua and I don't buy it.
jhbadger 6 hours ago [-]
Nearly all languages designed for mathematics are 1-based - R, Matlab, Mathematica, etc. because that's the mathematical convention and allows using formulas directly. The fact that Python isn't is a drawback in the domain.
ModernMech 3 hours ago [-]
Nearly all languages for non coders are this way including Excel and SQL and Scratch.
ModernMech 3 hours ago [-]
This is why AI is better at writing code than humans. They just write code and don’t complain about things that don’t matter, like indexing; or another classic, spaces vs tabs. Humans must learn to get past these things.
12jahsg 2 hours ago [-]
AI does not complain because it has no agency and cannot do anything without a prompt.
It is better than your code, which is probably a low bar.
postflopclarity 60 minutes ago [-]
> It is better than your code, which is probably a low bar.
why so rude and adversarial, especially when so misinformed? AI code is better than 95% of engineers at this point.
erjaq17 48 minutes ago [-]
It is better than your code for sure. 95% confirmed by Netcraft and Gartner.
postflopclarity 26 minutes ago [-]
why do you keep making new accounts?
kvchiu 6 hours ago [-]
[dead]
4563lk 2 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately Julia is now a vibe coded project where Claude has moved to the #1 spot for Jun-Aug 2026.
Of course their sponsors demand it. So it is in the same place as Ruby: interesting but out of the question.
postflopclarity 1 hours ago [-]
nobody "demanded" anything. it's just the most productive way to write code these days. the same is true at the vast majority of software companies (that can afford the $$ on tokens) as well.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mech-lang/mech/codex/taich...
Compared against Taichi, Halide, Futhark, Rust', Lua, LuaJIT, Numpy and pure scalar Python. Julia holds up great it can run basically as fast as you'd like! (These are not apples-to-apples comparisons, picture this as a basket of fruit)
'The Mech results should be understood to be a lower bound on how Rust would perform.
There's lots to like, but I think the thing I love most about it and find it so interesting is that it's almost uniquely good at taking a piece of code and transforming it's meaning in various ways, and has so many tools for doing so. There's
I think things have come down to a much more reasonable place though now.
It's a shame. So hard to recommend it to anyone outside of an academic environment.
If you reach into unstable language internals, yes there is a lot of churn. If you use public language interfaces, the language has been extremely stable for a long time.
The ecosystem quality and quantity depends a lot on what you're trying to do. If you're far away from numerics, then yeah, you will struggle a lot more. E.g. I wouldn't want to do web-dev in julia, but if your software product involves needing to solve an ODE, or a lot of linear algebra, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
The ode stuff is cool, but when we reached for it none of the demos ran on recent versions. It was almost like the groups working on it either intentionally made it so you couldn't keep up with them or that again everything was built on a bed of sand.
I agree writing linear algebra in Julia is clean. That said, the cost for adding a few "." Chars or calling a library in any other language far outweighed the costs for trying to buy into the language itself.
I didn't even know you could do web dev in Julia. I don't want to know what that looks like.
That certainly has not been my experience with the language since 1.0
> weird issues with basic transitive dependencies breaking after a minor version bump to the language.
Not sure what exactly this is referring to, but I suspect it was some bugs that happened when some stdlib packages were taken out of the sysimage and started being treated more like regular packages which are pre-installed.
For a couple minor versions, if you instantiated an manifest from a previous version that used some stdlibs, it could error out. That was indeed unfortunate and IMO should not have been released as such, but it's since been fixed.
I will point out though that officially, you are not supposed to use the same manifest across versions.
> didn't even know you could do web dev in Julia. I don't want to know what that looks like.
There's actually some rather cool stuff happening in that space, but yeah it's early days.
It's really not early days. The language is about 15 years old. That excuse gets really tired.
It's crazy to me how every person posting positively about Julia has the same tactics. They don't change year after year. They try to draw people in only to find it's a Trainwreck or a waste of time.
I just hope my comments save a start up a few million dollars or a curious hobbyist 5 months of their free time.
The manifest thing is a good example of a hard situation. You have a file format that's not designed to be portable across versions, but the usage pattern around it heavily encourages that, so of course it gets used across versions and bad stuff happens. I'm sure theres also some other examples like this one can pull up.
Of course there's cases where we should be doing better. I'm just also saying that this isn't the only experience out there, and the negative experience you're reporting isn't my experience.
> It's really not early days. The language is about 15 years old. That excuse gets really tired.
Please don't twist my words. I was responding to what you said about webdev, and I said there was some interesting things happening in that space, but still early days. I was explicitly referring to the webdev ecosystem being immature, not the language.
It is a lot of fun to start from an empty file, add maybe an import LinearAlgebra, and develop things like a convolutional neural network or a Markov-chain Monte Carlo algorithm completely from scratch. And then it is very rewarding to have such a program be fast enough (looking at Python here) to train on the MNIST dataset or find reasonable estimates for critical exponents.
I am not sure there are languages better suited than Julia for these kind of things.
(I last tried Julia a few years ago; perhaps this has been improved since?)
https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1.13-dev/manual/workflow-tips...
On the flip side, the rise of agentic coding means that the library/batteries mismatch against python will largely stop mattering. It should be very easy to have an agent implement large libraries -- especially if they can be just a translation from one language to another (esp. one with with better primitives!)
The pre-compiled binary outputs are much smaller, and load a lot faster. =3
https://yuri.is/not-julia/
When the criticisms relate to correctness bugs, I don't think 'try it out and see how you like it' is sufficient. I might love the syntax and the design and so on, but that doesn't tell me whether I'm going to run into serious bugs some time in the future.
It got a little long and meandered a bit, but I think there's some good, nuanced discussion there.
I'm sure there are lots of smart people who found that the language didn't suit their needs. there are also lots of smart people who love using Julia. both things can be true at the same time.
There are some real issues in the ecosystem. Specifically there is a high proportion of “gradware” because much like other scientific languages there is a high proportion of graduate students doing their projects and then moving on.
The language also encourages relying on packages which can break. But juliaup makes this easy enough to solve by downgrading.
Some languages are less permissive, and have a culture of searching harder for corner cases and dealing with them than others, that is true. I would expect to find less cases like this in Rust, but more cases like this in Python.
Julia is an extremely flexible and permissive language, which means that generic code needs to be written carefully and contracts between interfaces need to be thought through.
When you combine funky package types like OffsetArrays with functions from a package where the authors didn't think about OffsetArrays, bad things can happen. Those things were then reported and the community has learned a lot about how to deal with those sorts of things.
I'm sure an AI agent can crawl through and find a new big list of weird bugs in julia, but that's true even of a language like Rust.
> “With Dyad 3.0, you can upload data and design documents and the system will design an entire aircraft for you,” Shah says
Julia seems to sit in this area between Matlab and Fortran where I can’t ever find a reason to learn it instead of just using one of the other two. But people seem to love it (and the GPGPU support sounds like it is good?) so I should probably just make up a reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9HwsxE1OY
The biggest drawback of the language in my view is that Julia is an LLVM toolchain "pretending" to be an interpreted language (it is, technically), this often leaks as very slow first execution latency (and almost forces you to keep the interpreter open instead of just calling it on the file you're editing).
Scanning the language it doesn't strike me at all as "simple."
https://juliahep.github.io/Hands-on-Julia-for-particle-physi...
BASIC "made simple things easy, and hard things impossible..."
Julia is the first language I've seen in years that implicitly abstracts parallelism cleanly. =3
What do you mean by “implicitly”? A single dot is short but not implicit.
I also do not see https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/parallel-computing/ s mention that such map calls (can) run on multiple threads.
https://cuda.juliagpu.org/stable/tutorials/introduction/
But I agree the shared memory Distributed Computing part of Julia still needs a lot of work. Spawning binary image instances over ssh is too fragile. =3
Which, for anyone who doesn’t know Matlab, is the solve operator; it calls out to a big algorithm that chooses an appropriate solver given the operands, reducing large programs down to a single line.
I still like Julia more, as it is fun. =3
Secret mode: ./julia —-lisp
From my experience, grad students use Julia when their PI thinks a new programming language will help differentiate their next NSF proposal among vast funding requests.
I have yet to hear a good argument for why the answer to "How do I get the third element of this array?" should be `arr[2]`
> Both R and Julia have their core functions written in C++. Absolutely nothing new.
What on earth are you talking about? This is at least a novel claim. Some deep parts of julia's compiler are written in C++ but that's about it. Nearly everything in the language is written in julia itself.
The only significant foreign codebases in the language are
all of which are extremely reasonable foreign things for a language to use (though we are gradually moving more and more of these things to the julia side)Ask a carpenter.
To get to the third pigeonhole in a racked series of one foot per pigeonhole unit you literally offset two feet from the origin.
In C (of course), arr[2] works as well as does 2[arr] as both are literally just syntactic sugar for arr+2
ie. The third pigeon hole begins after passing two whole pigeonholes.
Indexes start at 1, offsets start at 0.
And offsets are the measurements that get you to an element - the question was explicitly phrased as "how do I get to" ...
I mean, that's an important low-level detail to know when you're working with assembly or doing pointer math, but it is not something that necessarily needs to be polluting the semantics of a high level language.
I find it much easier to think in terms of v[i] is the i-th element of my vector.
These sorts of things just feel like mental gymnastics people perform to post-hoc justify language quirks.
> but why are you trying to think about a list of elements in terms of offsets from the origin
I don't try to think about them in this way - I do and have always thought about them in this way - in software terms for 50 years, in real world cut, saw, and hammer ways for over 60.
> I find it much easier to think in terms of ...
Which is the crux of the issue really, that's how you think.
> v[i] is the i-th element of my vector.
I think of V as the start of a row of elements.
V+0 is equivalent to V and naturally the start of the first element.
V+1 is the start of the row, plus one - the literal start of the second element.
I've always thought of V[i] as offsets, "jump overs" if you will.
It comes naturally for many that have worked with their hands on physical objects and worked with tape measures.
> but it is not something that necessarily needs to be polluting the semantics of a high level language.
Either way of thinking works - I spent decades going back and forth from Fortran to C, and people are free to make their high level languages however they wish - it's trivial to move from one to the other.
There are even some funky (or eyeball gouging) tricks done to preamble a data run with meta data, leading to V[-1] indexing being commonplace (in some domains)
I don't see a good argument though, I just see adaption to a quirky convention.
> Either way of thinking works - I spent decades going back and forth from Fortran to C, and people are free to make their high level languages however they wish - it's trivial to move from one to the other.
Here I agree. I have no real problem using a 0-based indexed language, I adapt to it quickly (or as you mention a -1 indexed language. Julia itself actually stores type-level metadata at the -1 index of a pointer to a mutable struct)
I just dislike when people try and turn every conversation about julia into "oh it's 1-based indexed so that disqualifies it", and act like 0-based indexing is some god-given most natural way to do all indexing.
Of course you do - you very likely didn't start programming in assembler.
You literally asked "How do I get to .." implying you wanting street instructions, distances, etc.
In assembler the third element begins literally and straightforwardly at the address base plus two (element widths).
That's not "a quirky adaption" is it? It's a dull pragmatic address of the start of the third element - the answer to the question you posed.
> Of course you do - you very likely didn't start programming in assembler.
I did not, and I do not think that conventions from assembler should influence basic ergnonomic design decisions of modern high-level langauges.
imo this isn't really a good summary. Julia is one of the 3 languages to have done an exascale HPC run https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.10292v1 (Fortran and C are the other 2). Some parts of the compiler are written in c++ (the llvm interface), but doing codegen with llvm is much more similar to C/Rust/Fortran than R/Matlab
https://docs.sciml.ai/ModelingToolkit/stable/tutorials/nonli...
If you've used something like SciPy or symbolic Matlab or Maxima or whatever, it always feels like I'm very carefully converting the equations I've scribbled down on paper into code and always a little nervous that I've accidentally split one variable into two names or used the wrong equality operator and am going to end up hating life, or accidentally assigned x = sp.Symbol("y") somewhere.
The Julia version is just plain beautiful. There's no ceremony other than the three @parameters, @variables, @mtkcompile macros. It lives in its own little world where you don't have to constantly watch your back to make sure you haven't duplicated a symbol somewhere.
Some of the lower-level APIs like those for concurrency were quite poorly thought out though, at least when I last used Julia. Condition variables don't have equivalent of pthread_timed_wait. Condition variables and channels APIs are not well integrated, design wise. I found so many such issues that it convinced me Julia wasn't general purpose enough. It felt like the features were a bit half-baked and had been hacked together by someone who knew their value but lacked the deep experience/knowledge to pull them all together into a single cohesive vision. Same issues as python, POSIX, etc.
When I first read about Julia, I was really amazed - especially the type system with its multiple dispatching and not automatically converting between types (e.g., between integers and floats). Though, I do not know, how Julia is today.
Today, I use Python instead of Octave (or Julia) - just because it has a large ecosystem and is widely adopted. An additional advantage is that Python has much better OOP features than Octave had back then.
However, I wished Julia had the status that Python has today.
If you are an EE that wants to remain employed... than make sure you have documented hours with C/C++, Verilog on Zynq, and ladder logic for Rockwell automation products.
Best of luck =3
That rules it out to become a successor to Python. It sounds reasonable until you start interacting with other libraries.
I do know the attemp to justify it for Lua and I don't buy it.
It is better than your code, which is probably a low bar.
why so rude and adversarial, especially when so misinformed? AI code is better than 95% of engineers at this point.
Of course their sponsors demand it. So it is in the same place as Ruby: interesting but out of the question.